Socrates: Then not only custom but nature also affirms that to do is more disgraceful than to suffer injustice, and that justice is equality; so that you seem to have been wrong in your former assertion, when accusing me you said that nature and custom are opposed, and that I, knowing this, was dishonestly playing between them, appealing to custom when the argument is about nature, and to nature when the argument is about custom?

Callicles: This man will never cease talking nonsense. At your age, Socrates, are you not ashamed to be catching at words and chuckling over some verbal slip? do you not see-have I not told you already, that by superior I mean better: do you imagine me to say, that if a rabble of slaves and nondescripts, who are of no use except perhaps for their physical strength, get together their ipsissima verba are laws?

Socrates: Ho! my philosopher, is that your line?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: I was thinking, Callicles, that something of the kind must have been in your mind, and that is why I repeated the question-What is the superior? I wanted to know clearly what you meant; for you surely do not think that two men are better than one, or that your slaves are better than you because they are stronger? Then please to begin again, and tell me who the better are, if they are not the stronger; and I will ask you, great Sir, to be a little milder in your instructions, or I shall have to run away from you.

Callicles: You are ironical.

Socrates: No, by the hero Zethus, Callicles, by whose aid you were just now saying many ironical things against me, I am not:-tell me, then, whom you mean, by the better?

Callicles: I mean the more excellent.

Socrates: Do you not see that you are yourself using words which have no meaning and that you are explaining nothing?-will you tell me whether you mean by the better and superior the wiser, or if not, whom?

Callicles: Most assuredly, I do mean the wiser.

Socrates: Then according to you, one wise man may often be superior to ten thousand fools, and he ought them, and they ought to be his subjects, and he ought to have more than they should. This is what I believe that you mean (and you must not suppose that I am word-catching), if you allow that the one is superior to the ten thousand?

Callicles: Yes; that is what I mean, and that is what I conceive to be natural justice-that the better and wiser should rule have more than the inferior.

Socrates: Stop there, and let me ask you what you would say in this case: Let us suppose that we are all together as we are now; there are several of us, and we have a large common store of meats and drinks, and there are all sorts of persons in our company having various degrees of strength and weakness, and one of us, being physician, is wiser in the matter of food than all the rest, and he is probably stronger than some and not so strong as others of us-will he not, being wiser, be also better than we are, and our superior in this matter of food?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: Either, then, he will have a larger share of the meats and drinks, because he is better, or he will have the distribution of all of them by reason of his authority, but he will not expend or make use of a larger share of them on his own person, or if he does, he will be punished-his share will exceed that of some, and be less than that of others, and if he be the weakest of all, he being the best of all will have the smallest share of all, Callicles:-am I not right, my friend?

Callicles: You talk about meats and drinks and physicians and other nonsense; I am not speaking of them.

Socrates: Well, but do you admit that the wiser is the better? Answer "Yes" or "No."

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And ought not the better to have a larger share?

Callicles: Not of meats and drinks.

Socrates: I understand: then, perhaps, of coats -the skilfullest weaver ought to have the largest coat, and the greatest number of them, and go about clothed in the best and finest of them?

Callicles: Fudge about coats!

Socrates: Then the skilfullest and best in making shoes ought to have the advantage in shoes; the shoemaker, clearly, should walk about in the largest shoes, and have the greatest number of them?

Callicles: Fudge about shoes! What nonsense are you talking?

Socrates: Or, if this is not your meaning, perhaps you would say that the wise and good and true husbandman should actually have a larger share of seeds, and have as much seed as possible for his own land?

Callicles: How you go on, always talking in the same way, Socrates!

Socrates: Yes, Callicles, and also about the same things.

Callicles: Yes, by the Gods, you are literally always talking of cobblers and fullers and cooks and doctors, as if this had to do with our argument.

Socrates: But why will you not tell me in what a man must be superior and wiser in order to claim a larger share; will you neither accept a suggestion, nor offer one?

Callicles: I have already told you. In the first place, I mean by superiors not cobblers or cooks, but wise politicians who understand the administration of a state, and who are not only wise, but also valiant and able to carry. out their designs, and not the men to faint from want of soul.

Socrates: See now, most excellent Callicles, how different my charge against you is from that which you bring against me, for you reproach me with always saying the same; but I reproach you with never saying the same about the same things, for at one time you were defining the better and the superior to be the stronger, then again as the wiser, and now you bring forward a new notion; the superior and the better are now declared by you to be the more courageous: I wish, my good friend, that you would tell me once for all, whom you affirm to be the better and superior, and in what they are better?

Callicles: I have already told you that I mean those who are wise and courageous in the administration of a state-they ought to be the rulers of their states, and justice consists in their having more than their subjects.

Socrates: But whether rulers or subjects will they or will they not have more than themselves, my friend?

Callicles: What do you mean?

Socrates: I mean that every man is his own ruler; but perhaps you think that there is no necessity for him to rule himself; he is only required to rule others?

Callicles: What do you mean by his "ruling over himself"?

Socrates: A simple thing enough; just what is commonly said, that a man should be temperate and master of himself, and ruler of his own pleasures and passions.

Callicles: What innocence! you mean those fools-the temperate?

Socrates: Certainly:-any one may know that to be my meaning.

Callicles: Quite so, Socrates; and they are really fools, for how can a man be happy who is the servant of anything? On the contrary, I plainly assert, that he who would truly live ought to allow his desires to wax to the uttermost, and not to chastise them; but when they have grown to their greatest he should have courage and intelligence to minister to them and to satisfy all his longings. And this I affirm to be natural justice and nobility. To this however the many cannot attain; and they blame the strong man because they are ashamed of their own weakness, which they desire to conceal, and hence they say that intemperance is base. As I have remarked already, they enslave the nobler natures, and being unable to satisfy their pleasures, they praise temperance and justice out of their own cowardice. For if a man had been originally the son of a king, or had a nature capable of acquiring an empire or a tyranny or sovereignty, what could be more truly base or evil than temperance--to a man like him, I say, who might freely be enjoying every good, and has no one to stand in his way, and yet has admitted custom and reason and the opinion of other men to be lords over him?-must not he be in a miserable plight whom the reputation of justice and temperance hinders from giving more to his friends than to his enemies, even though he be a ruler in his city? Nay, Socrates, for you profess to be a votary of the truth, and the truth is this:-that luxury and intemperance and licence, if they be provided with means, are virtue and happiness-all the rest is a mere bauble, agreements contrary to nature, foolish talk of men, nothing worth.

Socrates: There is a noble freedom, Callicles, in your way of approaching the argument; for what you say is what the rest of the world think, but do not like to say. And I must beg of you to persevere, that the true rule of human life may become manifest. Tell me, then:-you say, do you not, that in the rightly-developed man the passions ought not to be controlled, but that we should let them grow to the utmost and somehow or other satisfy them, and that this is virtue?

Callicles: Yes; I do.

Socrates: Then those who want nothing are not truly said to be happy?

Callicles: No indeed, for then stones and dead men would be the happiest of all.

Socrates: But surely life according to your view is an awful thing; and indeed I think that Euripides may have been right in saying,

Who knows if life be not death and death life;

and that we are very likely dead; I have heard a philosopher say that at this moment we are actually dead, and that the body (soma) is our tomb (sema), and that the part of the soul which is the seat of the desires is liable to be tossed about by words and blown up and down; and some ingenious person, probably a Sicilian or an Italian, playing with the word, invented a tale in which he called the soul-because of its believing and make-believe nature-a vessel, and the ignorant he called the uninitiated or leaky, and the place in the souls of the uninitiated in which the desires are seated, being the intemperate and incontinent part, he compared to a vessel full of holes, because it can never be satisfied. He is not of your way of thinking, Callicles, for he declares, that of all the souls in Hades, meaning the invisible world these uninitiated or leaky persons are the most miserable, and that they pour water into a vessel which is full of holes out of a colander which is similarly perforated. The colander, as my informer assures me, is the soul, and the soul which he compares to a colander is the soul of the ignorant, which is likewise full of holes, and therefore incontinent, owing to a bad memory and want of faith. These notions are strange enough, but they show the principle which, if I can, I would fain prove to you; that you should change your mind, and, instead of the intemperate and insatiate life, choose that which is orderly and sufficient and has a due provision for daily needs. Do I make any impression on you, and are you coming over to the opinion that the orderly are happier than the intemperate? Or do I fail to persuade you, and, however many tales I rehearse to you, do you continue of the same opinion still?

Callicles: The latter, Socrates, is more like the truth.

Socrates: Well, I will tell you another image, which comes out of the same school:-Let me request you to consider how far you would accept this as an account of the two lives of the temperate and intemperate in a figure:-There are two men, both of whom have a number of casks; the one man has his casks sound and full, one of wine, another of honey, and a third of milk, besides others filled with other liquids, and the streams which fill them are few and scanty, and he can only obtain them with a great deal of toil and difficulty; but when his casks are once filled he has need to feed them anymore, and has no further trouble with them or care about them. The other, in like manner, can procure streams, though not without difficulty; but his vessels are leaky and unsound, and night and day he is compelled to be filling them, and if he pauses for a moment, he is in an agony of pain. Such are their respective lives:-And now would you say that the life of the intemperate is happier than that of the temperate? Do I not convince you that the opposite is the truth?

Callicles: You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled himself has no longer any pleasure left; and this, as I was just now saying, is the life of a stone: he has neither joy nor sorrow after he is once filled; but the pleasure depends on the superabundance of the influx.

Socrates: But the more you pour in, the greater the waste; and the holes must be large for the liquid to escape.

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: The life which you are now depicting is not that of a dead man, or of a stone, but of a cormorant; you mean that he is to be hungering and eating?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And he is to be thirsting and drinking?

Callicles: Yes, that is what I mean; he is to have all his desires about him, and to be able to live happily in the gratification of them.

Socrates: Capital, excellent; go on as you have begun, and have no shame; I, too, must disencumber myself of shame: and first, will you tell me whether you include itching and scratching, provided you have enough of them and pass your life in scratching, in your notion of happiness?

Callicles: What a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular mob-orator.

Socrates: That was the reason, Callicles, why I scared Polus and Gorgias, until they were too modest to say what they thought; but you will not be too modest and will not be scared, for you are a brave man. And now, answer my question.

Callicles: I answer, that even the scratcher would live pleasantly.

Socrates: And if pleasantly, then also happily?

Callicles: To be sure.

Socrates: But what if the itching is not confined to the head? Shall I pursue the question? And here, Callicles, I would have you consider how you would reply if consequences are pressed upon you, especially if in the last resort you are asked, whether the life of a catamite is not terrible, foul, miserable? Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy, if they only get enough of what they want?

Callicles: Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics into the argument?

Socrates: Well, my fine friend, but am I the introducer of these topics, or he who says without any qualification that all who feel pleasure in whatever manner are happy, and who admits of no distinction between good and bad pleasures? And I would still ask, whether you say that pleasure and good are the same, or whether there is some pleasure which is not a good?

Callicles: Well, then, for the sake of consistency, I will say that they are the same.

Socrates: You are breaking the original agreement, Callicles, and will no longer be a satisfactory companion in the search after truth, if you say what is contrary to your real opinion.

Callicles: Why, that is what you are doing too, Socrates.

Socrates: Then we are both doing wrong. Still, my dear friend, I would ask you to consider whether pleasure, from whatever source derived, is the good; for, if this be true, then the disagreeable consequences which have been darkly intimated must follow, and many others.

Callicles: That, Socrates, is only your opinion.

Socrates: And do you, Callicles, seriously maintain what you are saying?

Callicles: Indeed I do.

Socrates: Then, as you are in earnest, shall we proceed with the argument?

Callicles: By all means.

Socrates: Well, if you are willing to proceed, determine this question for me:-There is something, I presume, which you would call knowledge?

Callicles: There is.

Socrates: And were you not saying just now, that some courage implied knowledge?

Callicles: I was.

Socrates: And you were speaking of courage and knowledge as two things different from one another?

Callicles: Certainly I was.

Socrates: And would you say that pleasure and knowledge are the same, or not the same?

Callicles: Not the same, O man of wisdom.

Socrates: And would you say that courage differed from pleasure?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: Well, then, let us remember that Callicles, the Acharnian, says that pleasure and good are the same; but that knowledge and courage are not the same, either with one another, or with the good.

Callicles: And what does our friend Socrates, of Foxton, say -does he assent to this, or not?

Socrates: He does not assent; neither will Callicles, when he sees himself truly. You will admit, I suppose, that good and evil fortune are opposed to each other?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And if they are opposed to each other, then, like health and disease, they exclude one another; a man cannot have them both, or be without them both, at the same time?

Callicles: What do you mean?

Socrates: Take the case of any bodily affection:-a man may have the complaint in his eyes which is called ophthalmia?

Callicles: To be sure.

Socrates: But he surely cannot have the same eyes well and sound at the same time?

Callicles: Certainly not.

Socrates: And when he has got rid of his ophthalmia, has he got rid of the health of his eyes too? Is the final result, that he gets rid of them both together?

Callicles: Certainly not.

Socrates: That would surely be marvellous and absurd?

Callicles: Very.

Socrates: I suppose that he is affected by them, and gets rid of them in turns?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And he may have strength and weakness in the same way, by fits?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: Or swiftness and slowness?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: And does he have and not have good and happiness, and their opposites, evil and misery, in a similar alternation?

Callicles: Certainly he has.

Socrates: If then there be anything which a man has and has not at the same time, clearly that cannot be good and evil-do we agree? Please not to answer without consideration.

Callicles: I entirely agree.

Socrates: Go back now to our former admissions.-Did you say that to hunger, I mean the mere state of hunger, was pleasant or painful?

Callicles: I said painful, but that to eat when you are hungry is pleasant.

Socrates: I know; but still the actual hunger is painful: am I not right?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And thirst, too, is painful?

Callicles: Yes, very.

Socrates: Need I adduce any more instances, or would you agree that all wants or desires are painful?

Callicles: I agree, and therefore you need not adduce any more instances.

Socrates: Very good. And you would admit that to drink, when you are thirsty, is pleasant?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And in the sentence which you have just uttered, the word "thirsty" implies pain?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And the word "drinking" is expressive of pleasure, and of the satisfaction of the want?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: There is pleasure in drinking?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: When you are thirsty?

Socrates: And in pain?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: Do you see the inference:-that pleasure and pain are simultaneous, when you say that being thirsty, you drink? For are they not simultaneous, and do they not affect at the same time the same part, whether of the soul or the body?-which of them is affected cannot be supposed to be of any consequence: Is not this true?

Callicles: It is.

Socrates: You said also, that no man could have good and evil fortune at the same time?

Callicles: Yes, I did.

Socrates: But, you admitted that when in pain a man might also have pleasure?

Callicles: Clearly.

Socrates: Then pleasure is not the same as good fortune, or pain the same as evil fortune, and therefore the good is not the same as the pleasant?

Callicles: I wish I knew, Socrates, what your quibbling means.

Socrates: You know, Callicles, but you affect not to know.

Callicles: Well, get on, and don't keep fooling: then you will know what a wiseacre you are in your admonition of me.

Socrates: Does not a man cease from his thirst and from his pleasure in drinking at the same time?

Callicles: I do not understand what you are saying.

Gor. Nay, Callicles, answer, if only for our sakes;-we should like to hear the argument out.

Callicles: Yes, Gorgias, but I must complain of the habitual trifling of Socrates; he is always arguing about little and unworthy questions.

Gor. What matter? Your reputation, Callicles, is not at stake. Let Socrates argue in his own fashion.

Callicles: Well, then, Socrates, you shall ask these little peddling questions, since Gorgias wishes to have them.

Socrates: I envy you, Callicles, for having been initiated into the great mysteries before you were initiated into the lesser. I thought that this was not allowable, But to return to our argument:-Does not a man cease from thirsting and from pleasure of drinking at the same moment?

Callicles: True.

Socrates: And if he is hungry, or has any other desire, does he not cease from the desire and the pleasure at the same moment?

Callicles: Very true.

Socrates: Then he ceases from pain and pleasure at the same moment?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: But he does not cease from good and evil at the same moment, as you have admitted: do you still adhere to what you said?

Callicles: Yes, I do; but what is the inference?

Socrates: Why, my friend, the inference is that the good is not the same as the pleasant, or the evil the same as the painful; there is a cessation of pleasure and pain at the same moment; but not of good and evil, for they are different. How then can pleasure be the same as good, or pain as evil? And I would have you look at the matter in another light, which could hardly, I think, have been considered by you identified them: Are not the good they have good present with them, as the beautiful are those who have beauty present with them?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And do you call the fools and cowards good men? For you were saying just now that the courageous and the wise are the good would you not say so?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: And did you never see a foolish child rejoicing?

Callicles: Yes, I have.

Socrates: And a foolish man too?

Callicles: Yes, certainly; but what is your drift?

Socrates: Nothing particular, if you will only answer.

Callicles: Yes, I have.

Socrates: And did you ever see a sensible man rejoicing or sorrowing?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: Which rejoice and sorrow most-the wise or the foolish?

Callicles: They are much upon a par, I think, in that respect.

Socrates: Enough: And did you ever see a coward in battle?

Callicles: To be sure.

Socrates: And which rejoiced most at the departure of the enemy, the coward or the brave?

Callicles: I should say "most" of both; or at any rate, they rejoiced about equally.

Socrates: No matter; then the cowards, and not only the brave, rejoice?

Callicles: Greatly.

Socrates: And the foolish; so it would seem?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And are only the cowards pained at the approach of their enemies, or are the brave also pained?

Callicles: Both are pained.

Socrates: And are they equally pained?

Callicles: I should imagine that the cowards are more pained.

Socrates: And are they better pleased at the enemy's departure?

Callicles: I dare say.

Socrates: Then are the foolish and the wise and the cowards and the brave all pleased and pained, as you were saying, in nearly equal degree; but are the cowards more pleased and pained than the brave?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: But surely the wise and brave are the good, and the foolish and the cowardly are the bad?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: Then the good and the bad are pleased and pained in a nearly equal degree?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: Then are the good and bad good and bad in a nearly equal degree, or have the bad the advantage both in good and evil? [i. e. in having more pleasure and more pain.]

Cal I really do not know what you mean.

Socrates: Why, do you not remember saying that the good were good because good was present with them, and the evil because evil; and that pleasures were goods and pains evils?

Callicles: Yes, I remember.

Socrates: And are not these pleasures or goods present to those who rejoice-if they do rejoice?

Callicles: Certainly.

Socrates: Then those who rejoice are good when goods are present with them?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And those who are in pain have evil or sorrow present with them?

Callicles: Yes.

Socrates: And would you still say that the evil are evil by reason of the presence of evil?

Callicles: I should.

Socrates: Then those who rejoice are good, and those who are in pain evil?

Callicles: Yes.