TO BECOME A PERMANENT THING
A DISCUSSION ON IMMORTALITY
RICHARD SANSOM, CHRIS LOFTING,
GARY C. MOORE AND JUD EVANS |
Copyright © 2008 to the participants above.
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intact. TO BECOME A PERMANENT THING May 20,
2008
To Become
a Permanent Thing
by Richard Sansom
In youth, the poet writes in the phantasmagoria
of life,
since age is over the horizon, beyond the
hills of living,
and all there is is the color and fantasy
of the moment,
and the passion of its telling, and the love
of its truth.
But in age, well past those luscious jungles
of imagined touch,
there is memory in place of anticipation,
and anxiousness in place of welcomed expectation.
Much has already taken place ,
and the road one is on is all too familiar,
as opposed to that path, every turn of which
was fresh,
as if there is now a treadmill of sameness
that holds each moment in a repetitive grind
and informs the heart of tomorrow’s gloss
on the ups and the downs that await.
There is no new flower, but a thousand old
ones;
there is no grand anticipation, but a thousand
de-ja vus,
wherein the jumbled pictures of youth
are mingled with the slow interregnums of
age
and dreams are embraced as a way to make
a voyage
back to the leaping, yelping times of youth.
Ah, the poetry of age and aging – it is bound
to be,
especially in the hands of the ill equipped,
a sad and dilapidated architecture of words,
that sings the saddest songs so few will
hear,
and fewer still would enjoy.
I picture old folks gathering around a large
fire
in the woods, the flames casting dancing
shadows,
and the group huddled in the camaraderie
of age
all remembering the cascading tumult of their
youth
and making a chorus to that looming past
that rises up in the smoke among the trees
as if it is duty to some oracle of faith
that all that went before is never lost,
but floats up with the smoke, and mingles
with time and sky
to become a permanent thing.
RICHARD SANSOM: At the end of the my poem
that you reproduced you added:
*I have lost my sense of permanence.* |
I often have that feeling too, but then something,
probably my little struggling inner self,
takes over and tells me that it is not up
to me – that what we are and have been is
cosmically permanent. And I do not mean something
spiritual or religious, but matter of factly
permanent in the sense that in the time-space-mass
continuum nothing is ever lost. Of what value
that may be is up to the one leaving his
trail of life, accomplishments, regrets and
satisfactions. Lately I have been dwelling
on my early youth in Houston, just before
and at the beginning of WWII. I see my young
eight year old self in his daily life as
if it is a real existing process that does
not exist only in my imagination. I know
this probably sounds silly or extravagant,
wishful and the product of an aging mind,
but I do not care. It is a way of seeing
one’s life as a whole and very permanent
event. Thanks for your comments on the poem…..
Regards, Richard
GARY C. MOORE: Ever since I met my father-in-law,
now dead, I have been acutely aware of the
utter waste of significant human memories
by death. Despite Marcus Aurelius and his
we are all just a part of Mother Nature,
good or bad which reduces the distinction
to nonsense and I think he is right except
for his exception *for one self*, so many
people - maybe everyone - has experienced
at least one significant event in their lives
that , for most, dies with them. For me,
the only *significant* events of my life
are my finding the Basilica San Piero e Grado
about which, at least in English, has never
been written about - maybe very recently
but I originally searched the web thoroughly
and found nothing - and the dolphin I found
on the Tirranian beach [I think my poems
about both are buried somewhere in Jud‘s
site.]. My father-in-law was a combat marine
at Guam, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa as well as
embassy guard in Beijing after the war. All
of that is lost now.
Of what Jud has told me, his experiences
as a soldier in Egypt still stick in my mind.
I remember your remarks about your youth
in Japan. If there was a divine providence,
and we probably still subconsciously think
in this way in hidden forms of abstraction,
no one’s significant memories would be erased.
Hell, supposedly there is a quantum providence
that guides evolution through the huge statistical
improbabilities of life forming at all and
accounts for many of the sudden jumps in
evolution whereas simple Darwinian evolution
- supposedly - would still have life getting
out of the bacteria stage and seems to be
supported by what scientists have found in
the rest of the universe, mere PREDICTIONS
of bacteria or nothing at all, nothing whatsoever
other than life on this ball of mud.
JUD EVANS: A great discussion which touches
upon all the right points that we all share.
Some of us *get the message* about impermanence
earlier than others. Like you guys I have
been aware of the brevity of the brief materialisation
of the stuff that we comprise of since early
youth. That, BTW, was one of the things that
got up my nose about Heidegger. To qualify
as being one of his tiresome *Daseins* one
had to be aware of *our comportment towards
death* as if the knowledge of our own eventual
demise was a blessing only bestowed by God
or The Philosopher of Nazism on the loony,
angst-struck transcendentalist, reifying
right.
Antonio is quite right, reification and the
reifiers are the enemy. The good doctor exhorts
us to fight them - but how? As far as I can
see, taking the piss out of them (ridiculing
them) is the only way of getting at them
they have even infested the White House and
10 Downing Street - they are so completely
brainwashed it means (for all ontological
purposes) they are as good as brain dead.
Regarding our eventual death and the loss
of our unique experiences and our memories
of them I dont think it really matters. I
will qualify that. Obviously it matters to
us as individuals right now, and presumably
the nearer we approach the end of our stay
here on earth the more it concerns us. (I
will not say *death* - or *life* because
neither exist - only the living and the live
- the dying and the dead exist)
Why say that? Because I think it helps to
de-reify the Being Here and not Being Here
bit that the church makes such a fuss about.
Have you ever thought why the religous agenda-makers
and the *trannies on the make* make such
a big deal about death and have statues of
agonising death hanging all over the place?
The ghouls even errect then at roadside shrines
and cross-roads in some countries - just
to spoil your nice run into the countryside
with the kids. It is their way of trying
to control you - they constantly remind you
of God for their own evil purposes and that
is EXACTLY why the reificating runt Heidegger
was so obsessed with it - it was a leftover
from his training as a Jesuit control-freak.
Enjoy a good dreamless sleep sometimes? That
is what "death" is like - it is
like *nothing* and as *nothing* does not
exist either, that is both what it is like
and what it is not like. It is the *lead-up*
to not being permanently concious that causes
the concern - not the actual event of entering
into the *Big Sleep* (ever see the film?)
Our writings, our photographs, the souveniers
that the kids keep of us, the things we made,
the tunes we wrote, the garden gate we knocked
together, the children we made, the kisses
we kissed, will all turn to dust. But while
we are alive *The Death of the Author* and
creator does not take place - it may do as
far as some premenstrual post- modernist
freaks are concerned - but it does not happen
to us.
OK, what is the bottom line? The bottom line
is do all the things that you really enjoy
whilst you can. This does NOT mean adopt
a reckless way of behaving or doing anything
that will interfere with a comfortable, secure
and as far as possible pain-free, healthy
way of life. We must cut through the filagree
of delicate and intricate reificationary
binding that has been fouling up our lives.
Omar Khayaam was on the right track but fouled
up by emphasing the grape too much. Why do
I say that? Well the conversation that we
are having now is one that I had many years
ago with my best buddy. WE agreed that we
would each be a *witness* to each others
lives, in order that at least, for a time,
a little of our experiences, thoughts etc
would be stored, recorded in memory etc -
not only with regard to the possible death
of oner of us - but so, when meeting and
being together, we could jolt each others
memories and tell each other things about
ourselves that we had forgotten.
Well the grape got him - it has practically
erased all his memories and wiped his neurological
retrieval-system as clean as a wankers whistle.
I urge you to read Khayyam as a philosopher
(as well as a poet) of great insight and
profundity.
/rubaiyat. htm
Thank you both for coming up with all these
wonderful perceptivities which are a joy
to read. It is so comforting and in a way
reassuring to be priviledged with such remarkable
peers. Good friends, good books, good wine
- what more can a man want - lifetime data-loss
has nothing to offer compared to this?
GARY C. MOORE: Now, I know everyone, including
me, is very suspicious at the least of quantum
theory on this list. However, there have
been many real physical experiments [there
are also a number of common everyday machines
purportedly using quantum theory to operate
like scanners in stores] with it that have
had very strange results like the sloted
card board with, first, light shown through,
and then the even more disturbing results
from the photon gun shooting single photons
through the slot which never seem at all
to go in a straight line, a single path from
an unmoving source, which purportedly supports
the concept of infinite alternate universes.
This is what Michael Creighton’s novel TIMELINE
is about, and he explains his version of
it very well, but I have now read about it
in several other places. Interpretations
of the data vary slightly but seem to support
a similar conclusion. So when you say *that
what we are and have been is cosmically permanent.
And I do not mean something spiritual or
religious, but matter of factly permanent
in the sense that in the time-space-mass
continuum nothing is ever lost* may have
some basis in demonstrable fact, however
useful or useless it may be.
CHRIS LOFTING: There are issues here re interpretations.
QM is a specialist language derived from
our basic language creation dynamic that
encodes properties of our methodologies into
our maps and so if you don't know this is
going on then your interpretations of events
can be 'fanciful'.
All of the QM experiments covering single
and double slits etc (and so covering the
EPR 'paradox') are in fact examples of what
you get when you self-reference a dichotomy
in the presence of indeterminacy; and this
at ANY scale. IOW wave/particle duality is
a product of methodology - we can in fact
create the patterns using pen and paper,
see part III of "Categories of Mediation"
- the section titled:
"Brain oscillations, indeterminacy,
and emergence of the 'particle/wave' duality"
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/categories.pdf
IOW our experiment DESIGN is determined by
our brain structure and methodology in interpreting
reality. Part of this methodology is oscillations
and their processing to derive meaning. In
the EPR experiments the oscillations are
manifest in the dichotomies used - e. g.
left-slit/right-slit etc. This level presents
the ANTI-symmetric, and the recording medium
the symmetric where, over time, a pattern
emerges indicating all of the 'dots' are
linked together. This is a wave interference
pattern that comes out of the design itself.
This is also present at the classical level
of our brains where rote learning of distinctions
will, over time, create the formation of
a rich associative memory
(intuition feeds off this).
Simply put, the QM guys have no idea what
they are dealing with in that they refuse
to consider their brain make-up and how IT
determines all meaning. LOCAL context
(consciousness) will then relabel these meanings
to fit local conditions and differentiate
one locale from all of the others (and so
create specialist metaphors that are taken
literally due to ignorance of brain function.)
GARY C. MOORE: I am rather retarded in several
different ways but feel your point is important
to understand. No, to tell the truth, I do
not know what is going on with Quantum Mechanics,
but it seems an issue I recurrently have
to confront. Initially I took Heisenburg’s
indeterminacy principle to mean basically
you cannot do two substantially different
things at once, a common sense approach.
But I have seen the indeterminacy principle
conflated to *prove* indeterminacy is a real
factor in material reality.
In a common sense, it is as *the word is
not the thing* or *the map is not the territory*,
that is, a word merely points out some experiences
of the *object*, even its identity as an
*object* instead of *objects* since any object
can be literally or figuratively divided
into parts down to . . . but in no way exhausts
all the information any object can give.
It is merely one pointer among many possible
pointers. What I recently wrote about Umberto
Eco, C. S. Pierce, Heidegger, and Heidegger’s
dismissal of *resistance* as empirically
important [he loathes Empiricists in general],
or so it seems to me, to indicate irrefutably
the reality of an *external* world completely
separate from any and all words because if
something unknown hits you in the head that
object - or objects - can only be *known*
as *something that hit you in the head*,
that it counts as an irrefutable material
referent for no other reason than its resistance
to your head and your head’s resistance to
it, and that as *resistance* gives whatever
real reference the word has to reality to
the word so that in ALL cases the word is
always secondary and referential even if
you do not know anything more about what
hit your head. So essentially all words,
signs are pointers even if you do not know
what they are pointing at. That is all they
are, though they can be *pointers* in extremely
complex ways.
You have probably explained this elsewhere,
but what exactly is *our basic language creation
dynamic*? I have discussed elsewhere Aristotle
accepting that animals have *kinein* or judgment
or reasoning of sorts, that it is actually
encoded in the physical field of sight, that
is, left, right, up, down, far, near, time
as speed through space, like the Left/Right
dichotomy either you mention here or in the
segment of THE CATEGORIES OF MEDIATION both
of which are way over my head but I tried
to understand. I would like to try to tie
this in, though, with Paleolithic cave paintings,
especially those of France and Spain, where:
A] the cave paintings are NOT done to be
viewed [if at all, certainly not like a museum]
since they are placed in highly difficult
if not dangerous viewing points,
B] the ONLY common denominator amongst all
cave paintings throughout the world is *therianthropy*,
the changing of animal species into one another,
C] the use of dots and other figures NOT
in a decorative way [as is quite obvious
once one is aware of the problem - these
are nothing like decorations on pots whatsoever
though they are like the comments in Greek
some Greek vase painters made and Etruscan
vase painters imitated meaninglessly without
understanding Greek], and
D] as the archeologists Jean Clottes and
Ann Sieveking say, describes *a language
for which we have no vocabulary* for a cave
painting culture which existed using these
common elements from 35,000 to 15,000 BCE
- 20,000 years. Sometimes these paintings
with nearby [associated?] dots look exactly
like pictures with captions. Anyway, I have
to see my grand-daughter now and would appreciate
any help in these matters.
There is also the structure of the gene which,
again I have read in several places, that
seems to record, if maybe not specific events,
at least stages of not just human but all
animal evolution since the gene itself is
around 98% the same in all life, including
bacteria. And worse, only six trigger peptides
- there is a specific name for them I cannot
think of now - govern what the gene will
reproduce, that is, whether you become a
man or a lobster. And these trigger genes
are exactly the same and act as genetic keys
or switches in all life. And then there is
the mystery of mitochondrial DNA, an outside
introduction of DNA, present in all cells
from the earliest form of life. And there
are numerous peptides that seem to have no
present function, seem totally unconnected
to anything, that sit side by side with species
forming peptides. So Lamarckian evolution
is STILL not dead and completely out of the
running and maybe you are permantly imprinted
somewhere on the universe. I, for one though,
simply do not feel so.
CHRIS LOFTING: It is a factor in the realm
of the asymmetric. Our brains derive asymmetry
from mediation dynamics across part/whole,
anti-symmetric/symmetric, interactions. This
realm of the asymmetric is a realm of perpetual
transcendence through the use of language
- the issue of course is that it is never
ending and so incompleteness is a property
of language creation. The confusion overall
is of mapping system vs territory. OUR meaning
territory is grounded in symmetry and its
distortion through ratio analysis (parts,
LOCAL differences). Consciousness has emerged
from the 'middle' of the part/whole (1/X,
X/1) dichotomy and uses self-referencing
(Recursion) to derive categories that, if
done deep enough, generate enough categories
to be used as analogies in fleshing out finer
details of each category - and so we can
transcend meanings through 'adding a dimension'
to increase our categories and so give us
finer distinctions to play with. This PROCESS
allows for a finite dynamic to generate a
infinite number of labels to map a finite
set to unlimited local contexts.
Since consciousness comes out of the asymmetric
so its reflections on reality, if done through
ignorance of its own dynamics, can confuse
properties and methods of the mapping system
with what is being mapped.
For example, quantum mechanics is a metaphor
applied at a specialist level to describe
that level using specialist labels that represent
the ONE set of possible categories as derived
from a self-referencing neurology. As such,
as neuron-dependent beings, we all have a
sense of 'wholeness' but what it is applied
to is determined by local contexts.
This derivation of basic categories through
self-referencing comes out of what is call
the 'chaos game' where any containment of
noise, at any scale, will elicit spontaneous
order through self-referencing.
This process stems from symmetry where we
'cut' the 'universe of discourse' in that
any such universe is interpreted as a thing,
as a closed system and with that come properties
of closed systems - conservations laws, metaphor
creation (all is basically same and metaphors
allow for differentiating 'same' in different
contexts to give local differences)
Since we work off instincts/habits as primates
so our basic nature is grounded in symmetry.
This is an issue in that the universe is
obviously NOT symmetric, only aggregations
bring out symmetry such that the local realm
is anti-symmetric moving into asymmetric
(expressed in the uniqueness of consciousness).
Uncertainty is a property of the asymmetric.
Language comes out of the asymmetric. Confusing
the expressions with what is expressed is
confusing map with territory. That said,
at the base level of our being our neurology
is 1:1 with reality and as such is the perfect
map! BUT it lacks precision in the context
of consciousness, of mediation dynamics such
that we exaggerate, amplify, to get precision
that is communicatable and so overlay the
basics with countless labels.
GARY C. MOORE: You have probably explained
this elsewhere, but what exactly is *our
basic language creation dynamic*?
CHRIS LOFTING: ... the asymmetry of brain
oscillations in attempting to derive meaning
- we have a precision scale that takes us
from the oracular to the explanatory to understanding.
Science will focus on the explanatory and
as such is one step away from generating
understanding. To get understanding requires
knowledge of the source of meaning in the
form of communications in the form of languages.
The development of consciousness stems from
mediation dynamics and in ancient times that
would cover analogies to local contexts -
i. e. what the animal forms in their LOCAL
context manifest overall in the form of feelings
(power (anger, sex), acceptance/rejection
etc)
Reason is not limited to humans, in the brain
of all neuron-dependent life forms there
is development of reason as we move 'up'
the hierarchy and anthropomorphism is common,
even today ;-)
Awareness is not limited to humans, what
IS is awareness of being aware
(consciousness) and that varies by degree
from apes to us. Full blown consciousness
requires high levels of differentiating and
so precision. These dynamics equate with
frontal cortex and pre-frontal cortex where
such are very well developed in humans and
are trainable to a level of eliciting a sense
of SELF after about 24 months of life. From
there on it is all training, finer differentiating
etc that lets us surpass our chimp cousins
(who are adults after age 4).
An essential feature in art is cultural symmetry
- thus the art covers a topological dynamic
where distortions are possible but no symmetry-breaking.
It is from symmetry we gain our sense of
aesthetics and so our sense of perfection
etc. If the cultural symmetry includes tight
integration with local context and so life
forms, then those life forms can symbolise
properties of symmetry (e. g. 'all is connected'
etc and so allowing 'sharing' of space between
humans and animals, especially in ancient
times where the ties were strong).
Innovation OTOH 'breaks' symmetry or at least
offers a distortion so extreme that it can
elicit change overnight - a single word can
do that as well.
GARY C. MOORE Dear Chris, I greatly appreciated
you comment in your letter last letter
QUOTE
*Reason is not limited to humans, in the
brain of all neuron-dependent life forms
there is development of reason as we move
'up' the hierarchy and anthropomorphism is
common, even today ;-)
Awareness is not limited to humans, what
IS is awareness of being aware
(consciousness) and that varies by degree
from apes to us. Full blown consciousness
requires high levels of differentiating and
so precision. These dynamics equate with
frontal cortex and pre-frontal cortex where
such are very well developed in humans and
are trainable to a level of eliciting a sense
of SELF after about 24 months of life. From
there on it is all training, finer differentiating
etc that lets us surpass our chimp cousins(who
are adults after age 4).
EXCEPT could the real fundamental difference
be the teaching of language and the ability
to use it - at this point seemingly a unique
human ability beyond five or six hundred
words in an apes sign language vocabulary
- that is mostly potentiated by greater memory
power either built physically into the brain
[but why? how?] or potentiated by the memorization
structure [like Mateo Ricci's Memory Palace]
inherent in linguistic structure itself as
taught?
GARY C. MOORE: Dear all including Antonio.
More - but I am running out of brain cells.
JUD EVANS:(earlier) This can be evidenced
by the very fact that God said to Moses,
I AM who I AM and thus you shall say to the
children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
He did not say
(triadically) Tell them WE ARE sent you.
Only changing objects that are constantly
becoming slightly different versions of themselves
with each passing instant could ever exist.
GARY C. MOORE: This is interesting. Have
you studied the original Hebrew of this passage
in EXODUS? In GENESIS, amongst several minor
traditions, scholars have delineated two
major traditions, the Elohist and the Jawist.
The Jawist text reflects the writing and
expressions of the book of EXODUS. But the
Elohist tradition refers to God as *El [singular]
Elohim [plural]* or *That Particular Lords
or Gods*, an uncouth and awkward expression
if there ever was one which shows the value
of extremely conservative textual traditions
that brings us such puzzling expressions.
JUD EVANS I suppose that when such a monotheistic
*turn* takes place in any society, for example
when Saxon Britain was Christianised, or
when Cyril and Methodious Christianised the
Slavs and suddenly there was only one God
in place of many, there is bound to be a
bit of confusion at first? On a longish car
trip to a Christain conference in Durham
recently (North west to North East) my companion
( a bible scholar) said that some bible buffs
can detect exactly where Genesis-writer (A)
begins and Genesis-writer (B) stops. Of course,
at the time of the Moses-God confrontation
Jesus was not around - not even a gleam in
his Fathers all-seeing eye, so the *son*
element in the terrible trio was not available
for spiritualist accountancy or metaphysical
muster purposes.
GARY C. MOORE(earlier) Therefore the conceptualisation
of Being is an illegitimate heteron
***
GARY C. MOORE: How about binomial computer
language? The old cards with their punched
square holes to let through light and register
positive response versus unpunched surface
registering nothing -001111000110? ***Nothing
***
JUD EVANS: The zero or noll feature developed
by the Indians was a comparitive late-commer
as a useful fiction. As an eliminativist
all of number is a conveniently human-created
fiction including the Johnny-come-lately
zero. Only *that which is numbered* exists
as with *time* only *that which is timed*
exists. The fact that mathematicians and
science extrapolated *number* or *time* away
from its numbered or timed material objects
(abstracts *number* and *time* and calculates
such abstractions with the brain or in a
programmed computer constructed to operate
like the brain does not mean that the numbered
or calculated abstractions then exist - it
simply means that mentating, numbering and
timing humans and their computers exist.
GARY C. MOORE: This accords with what Eco
and Pierce say on pp. 33-34 of KANT AND THE
PLATYPUS. Everything and anything can only
be known at all through strings of positively
indicative statements so that to say *There
is nothing* indicates a positively indicative
statement in whose context it is an answer,
not the indicative of a thing called
*nothing*. This was mentioned in my letter
*Unwelcome*.
JUD EVANS: Eco is right, although he does
not put it the way an eliminativist would,
which in my view based more upon principles
of parsimony and simplicity. Following Plato
and his critique of Parmenides (who claimed
that anything that did not exist could not
even be referred to or mentiuoned) the Heideggerians
claim that as a heteron *nothing* exists
as the opposite of *being*.
The Indo-European Mother Language (the language
of Ur) 16S anskrit has an unbroken historical
record of about 3000 years. So, beginning
with any of the modern Indo- Aryan languages
(like Urdu and Hindi), one should in principle
be able to reconstruct where and how complex
predicates originated.
Diachronic linguist Miriam Butt of UMIST
in her The Light Verb Jungle, reminds us:
Vedic is generally dated until about 600
BCE. Epic and Classical Sanskrit fall into
the time from 600 BCE to 200 CE. Together
with Vedic, these are referred to as Old
Indo- Aryan. It is generally agreed… that
the ancestral construction of the modern
V-V complex predicate is the Sanskrit gerund
or absolutive in -tv¯a(ya), or -ya/y¯a.[8]
(Butt. 2003.
7.1) *
GARY C. MOORE: Now even conservative scholars
date the RIG VEDA back to 1500 BCE.
JUD EVANS: You are perfectly correct but
Butt was refferring to vedic being dated
UNTIL not FROM about 600 BC from which Epic
and Classical Sanskrit are then dated to
fall into the time from 600 BCE to 200 CEas
the quote makes plain
GARY C. MOORE: Many people date it back much
further because of the descriptions of the
stars in the heavens when they rose in the
sky along with the conjunctions with the
planets. Also, the so-called Aryan invasion
of India has been shown to be a myth,..
JUD EVANS: As Dravidian historians of south
India and Sri Lanka voriciously claim.
GARY C. MOORE:... a deliberately induced
myth by English/European scholars to justify
Aryan racial superiority [this comment is
evoked by your *the language of Ur* which,
until I looked up note 16, I thought referred
to the *Ur of the Chaldees* of Sumer and
the Bible]. As far as I know the provenance
of Sumerian has not been found and is only
translatable to the extent a Semitic language
like Akkadian has delivered correspondences.
JUD EVANS: Edo Nylands *Origin of Sumerian*
is worth a look on my website at: /ling_sumerian.
htm
GARY C. MOORE: The hieroglyphs of Mohenjodaro
and Harrapa and elsewhere of the Indus valley
culture still resist translation since, unless
cognate texts giving correspondences are
found in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley [which
is possible because there is archeological
evidence of commerce between the Indus culture
and Sumer both ways], there is no Rosetta
Stone for the Indus culture. That is, unless
. . . Now the original English archeologist
who excavated Mohenjodaro SPECULATED massive
massacres of the original inhabitants in
the Indus valley culture because no evidence
of a non-Aryan language in that culture survives
in any form or fashion.
The whole Aryan invasion theory was postulated
back in 1788 when the relation of Sanskrit
etcetera was discovered and, of course, could
not have been the language originated by
those dirty brown savages that actually live
there. No such massacres occurred though.
There is no evidence for an Indo-European
invasion until the Portuguese under Admiral
Albuquerque, the Dutch, the Danes, the French,
and the British East India Company showed
up. Admiral Albuquerque, with a human hunting
license like the English of South Africa
[with enthusiastic Afrikaner support] from
the Mughal Emperor Arangjeb [spelling], massacred
Hindus gleefully as the most atrocious of
heretics in both Christian and Muslim eyes
[even the Jews of South India were persecuted
which Mateo Ricci protested against]. The
British East India Company enjoyed blowing
Indians out of their cannons in 1857. But
nothing of the sort happened around 1500
BCE or anywhere thereabouts in the Indus
valley. So common sense says Sanskrit and
related languages were already spoken in
India when Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa were
mighty commercial centers. Or they were Dravidian
related which is a non Indo-European language.
But still no vast massacres to prove Ayran
racial prowess, and there is a Dravidian
language island in the middle of Baluchistan
[in separatist revolt against Pakistan right
now] whereas most of the 200,000,000 speakers
live in southern India. I thought it was
related to Tamil, an Indo-European language,
but it seems it is not. Dravidian has no
better claim than Sanskrit to be the language
of the Indus valley culture. But it sure
the hell is not anything else unless someone
has some surprising news. I do not know if
any attempt to relate it to Sumerian could
even be attempted.
JUD EVANS: I also have a complete deconstruction
or rubbishing of Sanskrit by an Indian scholar
*Dead Sanskrit was Always Dead - The Anti-Sanskrit
Scripture* by Shyam Raohere: here: /sanskrit_exposure.
htm
GARY C. MOORE: Anyway, nothing of Sanskrit
literature was ever written down until a
thousand years ago because of the on slot
of the Muslim holocaust that exterminated
the Jain scriptures altogether. Everything
including Panini was memorized. Quite a vast
undertaking that says a great deal about
the potential of human memory rarely used
nowadays. Something worth investigating all
on its own.
JUD EVANS: I remain in awe of the people
who memorised such texts. Every Moslem must
commit at least 12 vs. or lines of the Qur'an
to memory and even today there are people
who have managed to commit to memory the
whole of the Koran.
Thanks for the stimulating observations and
comments Gary.
Nothingness (an absence of objects) could
not exist - because if nothing existed (or
did not exist) then nothing would be in a
state of non-existence, and to be in any
state at all - of whatever nature - is to
exist in that state, and to exist in a state
is NOT not to exist. 12 or wrongful ideational
mirror image of the Greek instantiation to
mae on (that which is not.) Interestingly
in the case of both Being and Nothing the
concepts are particular modes of the human
neurological system when it selects the words
as nominals bereft of any denotatum in an
attempt to denote the presence or absence
of some unspecified entity or entities. The
cognitive intellections Being andNothing
are ALWAYS used as non-existent others (heterons)
for purposes of differentiating occupied
rather than unoccupied space.
CHRIS LOFTING: (addressing The General Theory
of Reification)
"Nature acts this way.." ! Natural
selection favours aggregation of bits into
instincts/habits. This will FORCE the NATURAL
emergence of symmetry. With THAT has come
the anti-symmetric in the form of parts analysis.
A MINDLESS artefact of making distinctions
is in border creation and so the letting-loose
of what lives on borders - complexity/chaos
dynamics (and so self-referencing and the
containment of noise). This will NATURALLY
elicit fragmentation of the whole and so
the emergence of discretisation, objectification,
and associated dynamics. With that comes
the NATURAL oscillations across the part/whole
dichotomy and from THAT, given enough neural
complexity, comes consciousness as an agent
of randomness/mediation. There is no INTENT
necessary, what had come has come out of
basic, mindless, evolution processes where
natural selection gives way to conscious
selection
(genetic engineering etc) but at the LOCAL
context.
Hancock makes just this point for his own
thesus on therianthropy. The World As I Found
It Perfect example of real ontology, solipsism
that negates its own category because there
is nothing to really compare solipsism to.
*** What you say about God fits in perfectly,
or seems to, with what Umberto Eco says clearly
and Heidegger very obscurely, that *God*
as a concept is subordinate to language as
primary. *In the beginning was the word*,
not God, unless you literally equate God
with language.
The link here is to asymmetric mediation
skills of the neurology out of which comes
our language. The current version of Categories
of Mediation bring out 'sameness' in mathematics,
emotions, and linguistics in the ground of
the generation of Mathematics as a language.
The relevant section is pasted below:
"Ash and Gross define Mathematics as:
"The logical study of patterns: Patterns
of numbers . Patterns of permutations . Patterns
of points . Patterns of systems of solutions
to .. equations. We use the term "pattern"
in its broadest sense, to mean any arrangement
of things that follow some orderly rule,
allowing for prediction and contemplation"
(p233 Ash & Gross 2006)
With the focus of this current text we take
a more generic analysis where the moment
we focus on 'bit' forms of representation
so emerges considerations about logic and
mathematics and so "patterns".
Of special interest here is the ease in which
we can derive the properties of Mathematics
from the identified basic categories of mediation
and so from pattern matching in the form
of analogy-making. This demonstrates the
ease in which a language is formable from
basic self-referencing.
The basic types of numbers cover: Whole Numbers
Irrational Numbers Rational Numbers Imaginary
Numbers
Mapped to our set of basic categories of
meaning we have:
Wholeness - focus on whole numbers (where
this category still reflects differentiate/integrate
in the form of prime vs composite numbers)
Partness - focus on rational numbers (harmonics)
Static relatedness - focus on irrational
numbers (sharing of space with another/others,
invariance)
Dynamic relatedness - focus on imaginary
numbers (sharing of time with another/others
- morphic/cyclic change)
Real numbers are made up of whole numbers,
rational numbers, and irrational numbers.
Complex numbers are made up of Reals and
Imaginary.
Neurologically our mapping of intervals is
highly manifest in the processing of sound.
Our ears respond to sound logarithmically
(frequency ratios, not differences, determine
musical intervals and mathematical form is
in idealised numbers that are in fact simplified
ratios, 2/1 become 2, 56/1 becomes 56 etc
and so ratio is objectified into a constant)
When this response format is generalised,
partness brings out this focus on intervals
as measured as ratios where such form the
foundations of the harmonic series and so
of rational numbers but also of discreteness
in general (working backwards we move from
rationals to wholes and so reflect the transformation
of continuous to discrete).
Of note here is this basic dimension of meaning
derived from self-referencing is logarithmic
in form, covering a spectrum where each category
covers an arithmetic series as it does a
geometric series (and so a focus on octaves
overall - the arithmetic series is the harmonic
series, the geometric series is the octave
series)
The focus on PARTNESS is a focus of the realm
of the anti-symmetric that covers differences
WITHIN sameness where that includes 'null-sameness',
aka the unique. With the language of the
neuron being in frequencies, wavelengths,
and amplitudes we can see the harmonics processing
of partness where harmonics are 'partial'
waves. Overall we see here the links of music
with emotions and mathematics in that the
latter two specialist realms show their roots
in self-referencing and part/whole dynamics.
An additional factor here, in the context
of meaning derivation, is the formant, associated
with frequency it maps to vowel production
and so an element of precision in communication
(the vowel determines, for example, hot from
hat) - generalised to information processing
it covers precision in meaning extraction
in general and equates to the emotional content
of a word
- see part IV where is presented the linking
of emotions to the same methodology of self-referencing
as we have here with Mathematics.
The development of cardinality reflects a
grounding in the symmetric and with that
grounding comes symmetric 'laws' (associative,
commutative, distributative). With the development
of ordinality (AFTER cardinality and in tune
with the development in our brains of hippocampus
activities focused upon sequencing) comes
a focus on vectors - we add to scalars a
sense of 'direction'. There is still symmetry
in the sequence in the form of repetition
and cycles but the higher the required precision
the more asymmetric we get.
Thus the development of finer and finer levels
of precision shift a focus from the symmetric/anti-symmetric
to the asymmetric. We see this in the classification
of numbers from real into complex, complex
into quarternions, quarternions into octonions.
There is also the general movement in Mathematics
from the geometric forms of representation
(dimensional) to algebraic forms of representation
(dimensionless).
Thus a focus on mediation elicits a mediation
tool-kit of specialist languages to be used
in dealing with reality. The origin is in
the simple difference of '1' as compared
to the introduction of sameness through '2'
onwards. With this comes the qualitative
difference seeding number in the form of
the positive/negative dichotomy.
The conjugate requirement of complex numbers
mean they reduce to sets of real 'pairs'
thus:
Real - (a, 1) Complex - (a, b) Quaternion
- ((a, b),(a, b)) Octonion - (((a, b),(a,
b)),((a, b),(a, b)))
This reduction to pairs brings out a dynamic
grounded in self-referencing a dichotomy
where such will bring out pairings.
On the other hand, we find the same generic
qualities come out when we focus on the fight/flight
dichotomy and its self-referencing to bring
out the categories of basic, primary, emotions;
as such we find equivalence between mathematics
representations and emotional representations
where both perspectives are derived from
the asymmetric but linked to symmetry and
as such to a realm that is dominated by issues
with the aesthetic and 'perfection'.
We note that current Mathematics is grounded
in Set Theory and so is grounded in group
concepts and the realm of the symmetric (where
such a realm is riddled with patterns!).
On the other hand, the complement to set
theory is the area of the mereological and
so includes coverage of the unique through
a focus on parts and the individual (e,.
g. Simons, 1987) - what we will find overall
is that the origins of Mathematics are in
the realm of mediation and so the autological/paradoxical
realm of the asymmetric where we develop
the toolkits for representing reality through
our mediations with reality. There is a price
for doing this - incompleteness, as discovered
by Godel but at a time ignorant of the findings
of neurology that map mathematics to our
mediation realm (the asymmetric) and so the
realm of representations/mediations rather
than what is mediated/represented."
There maybe interesting but rather useless
speculation about carrying this idea out,
but once again, as with every dedicated theology,
it ultimately trivializes the concept
*God* to being a mere metaphor acting just
like the way you say *Being* acts, it is
not existing but points to a material structure
that does exist.
Emotionally there is a tie to symmetry. Matte-Blanco's
work on symmetric thinking brings this out
Matte-Blanco, I., (1975,1991)"The unconscious
as infinite sets"
... and his work is utilised in such as:
Bomford, R., (1999) "The Symmetry of
God" FAB
Neurologically there is a tie to a sense
of 'bliss' being elicited by the brain areas
covering symmetry (e. g. right hemisphere
bias that can also elicit depression). Of
note is that symmetry goes nowhere - there
is aesthetic determinations but static and
this equates with idealised beauty etc being
'eternal'. This also equates with symmetric
perspectives being closed systems, self-referencing,
all-encompassing, all-conserving and so on.
RICHARD SANSOM:
It has been shown, from early histories,
that our species invents and believes in
some kind of life after death. As thinking
organism, it seems only natural to wish ourselves
into a painless and benign future, especially
for most of us since life often is hard,
unrewarding, dangerous and painful. I suppose
that my own take on the matter is simply
more of the same, but grounded in something
I consider at least vaguely plausible – depending
on ones belief in Time, Space, Matter and
Motion – with a tincture of Einstein thrown
in for scientific foundation. There is no
succor in my theory since I cannot conceive
of any way to access that time-space-mass
continuum, and further, there is no real
blessing to its existence. It is simply an
occasionally useful poetic fantasy.
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