I.D. Greeks 00024  

JUD EVANS:
Any comments that you have on Josephus would be interesting Gary. From what I have read he appears to have been viewed as a quisling by the Jews.

GARY. C. MOORE:
That relates directly to what I said about who the ancient authors were writing for, and it also relates to the perrenial question 'who is a Jew?' I have gathered from the dead sea scrolls, the Dura Europos Synagogue and other archeological sites, and Jewish scholars who studied the Macabean revolt that not only was Hellenization of of the Jews extremely deep and very wide spread, but that polytheism was very far from dead among them.

JUD EVANS:
The Hellenization that the Jews underwent and the cultural undertow that went with it that flows from your observation may go to explain how it came about that the sophistications of Platonic and Aristotelian ideas slotted so seamlessly into Christianity later on?

Born 25 BC [I use AD and BC purely out of convenience and need for clarity. Politically, I prefer BCE and CE, Before Common Era and Common Era, but sometimes this loses people] in Alexandria, by far the greatest hellenizing influence in the whole Levant and possessing the largest Jewish community outside Israel before the Zealot revolt and definitely the largest until 115, Philo had a thorough comprehension of Greek philosophy, with Plato as his favorite, but he still remained a dedicated though not fanatical Jew.

     There were other Jews that dabbled in Greek philosophy but he was by far the most famous and sophisticated. However, the fact that there were a large number of Jews, mainly Alexandrian, who were deeply involved in Greek language project, history, tragedy, second class philosophy, religious texts, and even insertion of Greek poetic lines into classical Greek tragedy to pseudo-nonimously justify the claim that Moses taught the Greeks their philosophical wisdom. That it was, most of the time, awkward and poorly done, other than Philo and Josephus [anyone who has other suggestions please speak up], nonetheless they COULD do it.

   And, remember, at the same time there was a huge body of literature of mediocre to wretched quality produced by Greek gentiles and even pure blood Egyptians [Manetho, a rapid anti-Semite] most of which luckily did not survive [yes? no?] other than as snippets or plagiarized by other authors [that is, however a very interesting field of investigation in itself]. And that ability denotes a very thorough knowledge of Greek language and culture amongst a great many Jews. Anything specific maybe I can look up. I am digging out my old books. I have started reading again a very good study of Josephus [second edition, 2002] by Tessa Rajak published by the British press Duckworth. Most [all?] other studies of Josephus are usually old and filled with inherited Christian preconceptions which she points out in the beginning of her book. I also have all of Josephus' works in the Loeb Library edition.

     Which translation did you load up at your site? Whiston's? If I remember right Bishop Whiston wrote in the second half of the 1700s. It is supposed to be terrible but it has been revised by modern but Christian scholars for Christian presses.

JUD EVANS:
Do you think my suggestion was a factor Gary? Otherwise it would be difficult to work out how such an orientalist take on religion was able to absorb such intelligent sophistry? But maybe it was the other way around and it was the 'western' sophists who needed some monotheistic stiffening to overawe the hoi polloi with the threatening angry God of the Jews?

GARY. C. MOORE:
Both takes are correct. Even Presocratic philosophy and literature was heading toward monotheism from the earliest times. Greeks did express interest in Jewish writing, but this was mainly after Alexander the Great. But the Greek take on monotheism always allowed polytheistic expression whenever they felt like it, for instance Socrates and especially the PHAEDRUS, and very possibly the Jews before the Macabean persecution, which, as I stated, was very incomplete. The book of ENOCH seems to imply a polytheistic base inherent in Judaism, scholars have supposedly found polytheistic references in the Old Testament, [Rahab, the sea god?

   Leviathan whom the Puritans interpreted as a symbolic representation of God - 'It is a terrible thing to be in the hands of the living God' – Johnathan Edwards – Moby Dick], the Elephantine Island Jewish Temple in the Nile across from Thebes of which once I read there was a representation of the four winds of which I have never been able to find another reference to even saying that was not true. GARY.C. MOORE: Greek was certainly the predominant language in the cities actually inside Israel, and the appeal of Hellenism not only as a military victor but also culturally, economically, and politically. Actually, all those subjects were mixed together in the desire to climb in social status in the eyes of the Greeks and other fully Helinized Jews. So, the question is then 'why do we have an entirely different picture of the Jews?'

JUD EVANS:
I confess I did not realize that Greek took such a hold. I suppose the US presence in Iraq has certain parallels with the Greek invasion and occupation of Israel in that most Iraqis are drawn to the openness, freshness and sheer exhilaration of American music, clothing style, food, films etc?

GARY. C. MOORE:
The unfortunate Roman aspect should not be ignored. After all, it took almost two hundred years for the Jews to purportedly get mad at the Greeks whereas the Romans escalated pissing them off from the time of Pompey. There were many small revolts before the Zealot revolt, the Zealot revolt notable mainly for the extremity of the solution of the 'Jewish Problem'.  In many ways the same thing has and is happening with the Muslims. The most violent and fanatical minority who will stop at nothing to imposed their specific religious views on others seemingly of the same religion but really only so in the eyes of outsiders who can see no significant distinctions between them. The Macabean revolt - at first - essentially exterminated all Helenized Jews they captured.

JUD EVANS:
Just like the insurgents in Iraq are killing their fellow countrymen who work for or consort with the hated occupier.

GARY.C. MOORE:
Then they were the ones who wrote the history that survived. But that history was not only written in Greek, but, beyond the fanatical first book of Macabees, the other three books more and more 'degenerate' once again into Helenized Judaism just as the Macabean family 'degenerated' into Helenized Jews themselves.

JUD EVANS:
Same as what happened to the Saudi family who whilst they display the trappings of Arabness in public get pissed out of their minds on illegal alcohol in private with their women wearing the most sexy western underwear neath their black personal tents that they call the hijab.

GARY. C. MOORE:
Both Al Jina [Pakistan} and Mustapha Kemel Ataturk were alcoholics. Ataturk, though, wanting to Westernize Turkey while Al Jina was a bloody minded anti-Hindu fanatic.

   Jewish scholars now seriously question the supposed reasons for the Macabean revolt, saying the causes stated in the first book of Macabees contradict all political policies of their Greek Seleucid rulers toward non-Greek populations, that is, they never forcibly Helenizsed anyone or forced them to become polytheists, but just made it socially, politically, and economically advantageous to become more like the Greeks. The Seleucids did not need force. Most Jews wanted it. But the desperate and impoverished minority, hating the success of the Helenized Jews, did not. Sound familiar?

JUD EVANS:
It sure does.

GARY.C. MOORE:
Then the Romans came. The Seleucids were not control freaks. Romans were. They had decided ideas on how to discipline native populations. However, this was done in a legal and orderly fashion, mainly just to show who was boss and, like the Seleucids, relied primarily on the desire for worldly success to convert non-Romans to the Roman style of life. However, to display Roman power meant Roman soldiers had to be in Jerusalem which was almost as bad as finding a Christian in Mecca [Sir Richard Burton] and almost as provocative as having American troops there - which, of course, is what Osama ben Laden has been saying is going to happen and has happened in cities that at one time had also been off limits to non-Muslims. Afghanistan had been totally off limits to any non-Muslims until Britain forced its presence and influence there in the 1840s, and you know what happened on that occasion.

JUD EVANS:
Yes I do - my Dad spent 15-years there in the twenties and early thirties stationed in the Khyber Pass. And Sir Richard Burton now THERE'S a character for you - have you read much by/about him Gary? I am amazed that Hollywood has never jumped aboard the Burtonesque bandwagon?

GARY. C. MOORE:
The movie MOUNTAINS OF THE MOON and a PBS series about the search for the real source of the Nile. There are several good books about him. He is sort of a hero for me – except for his choice for a wife. Have you seen portraits of him? The scar on his left cheek came from a Somali spear.

GARY.C. MOORE:
Supposedly the Jewish revolt of 66 ad was started during a Jewish holy day, possibly Passover, when a Jewish crowd was protesting the presence of a Roman guard on the outside wall of the temple. If the guard had not responded to the Jews and just ignored them possibly nothing more would have happened. But he was a Roman soldier, arrogant, without respect for other people's values different from his, so, supposedly, he reached down, exposed his genitals, and flapped them at the crowd. This is much more believable than the manufactured lies of the Macabees. And though all Jews were outraged, as soon as the zealots and Iscarrii and other super fanatical groups took over the spontaneous revolt, they not only destroyed the Romans in Israel and a poor quality legion sent down from Damascus, but turned, once again, to exterminating the Helenized and Romanized Jews that did not immediately politically support them.

JUD EVANS:
Shades of the sexual humiliation meted out in el Ghraib prison?

GARY.C. MOORE:
Josephus was the roman governor of Galilee. Being politically astute, he immediately supported the zealots. But when the first class roman armies led by Vespasian as were all the other zealot armies, and was told to commit suicide to prevent defeated him capture and becoming a roman slave, he murdered the zealot group he was hiding with in a cave - poison? Blocking up the cave? - And somehow to Vespasian besieging Jerusalem, begged for mercy and told him all the things he could do for him, impressed Vespasian enough that he made him a secretary. Some of these things may not be completely accurate. It has been a long time. But it is close. Josephus stayed with the Vespasian family the rest of his life, eventually, I think, being adopted into it. It would be interesting to know how that was done. He wrote his book about Judaism to explain what he thought it was to Romans and show it was not a threat. He wrote the book about the revolt to show how vicious and fanatical the zealots were, and history seems to bear him out. But the image of Jew per se as vicious and nasty was permanently imprinted now on the roman mind. And that point of view just made the Jews more rebellious to the point they were nearly exterminated throughout the roman world. In essence, the Romans, first by policy, then by attitude, created their Jewish enemies.
   
     ADDENTUM: In re-reading, he got into Vespasian's presence by claiming he could foretell Vespasian was going to be a Roman emperor. Josephus claimed this was part of his training as a Jewish priest and the high quality of his family blood line, but this is distinctly Roman, not Jewish, ways of thinking. In fact, the orthodox Jews could have regarded such a claim as witchcraft. Josephus always told the 'truth' in a purely self serving way. But then that was the way of almost anyone in his day and age and they did not try to hide it at all. GARY.C. MOORE: Rabbinical Judaism was a way of making Jews quiet and peaceful among their alien neighbors without necessarily Hellenizing. The point is there was a vast array of extremely different kinds of Jews. Josephus was simply a very Hellenistic one. Assimilated. Someone who wanted to live, not die. GARY.

    ADDENTUM: Rabbinic Judaism existed before the Jewish revolt. Paul was more or less in that Pharisee tradition. It seems to be a reaction against the tremendous ethical and political corruption of the Jewish priesthood. Sadducees, highly hellenized, perfume lovers, wine lovers, controlled the Sanhedrin that supposedly condemned Jesus to death which then makes one consider, if it happened at all, to be a political act aimed at the Zealots and Pharisees. But after the Revolt, they got rid of the idea of big displays of Jewishness as in building Temples to complete with pagan deities. Synagogues were houses of teaching and never performed the functions of a Temple.

     Despite claims to the contrary, temples were built at Heliopolis and Elephantine Island in Egypt and I suppose the Falashas of Ethiopia had some sort of temple since they did preserve the tradition of animal sacrifice on altars. But the pictures I have seen have always been open air. Which I have not thought of before and brings up a possible comparison to the Samaritans, still persecuted in Israel, while the Falashas are highly discriminated against. There is NO unity of Jewish opinion in Israel itself, but they do not like to show their dirty laundry to the gentile public.